When is D/s abuse?
October 16, 2007 by Sylvanus
This post comes in response to a comment from Buzz on mina’s “What Just Happened” post about a surprisingly savage belting I gave mina. To save some senseless clicking, I’ll quote it here, but you can always go to see the full context:
ABUSE… it’s called abuse.
I fail to see the pleasure here for anyone… you or him.
Would he take the same belting?
Hell NO!
Let’s get a few things out of the way first:
Would I take the same belting? Absolutely, and I have even asked Mina to do so. The surprising desire to be beaten by her has given me a lot of insight into how she feels about her end of the bargain, and it has had the effect of diminishing my inhibitions about what I do to her.
Secondly, and this is really the bigger point: It doesn’t matter if I would take the belting or not. My willingness to be subjected to a particular abuse does not make the behavior less abusive. (Granted, it is a good rule of thumb, but not an actual basis for reasoning.) For instance, I could claim that I am happy to take shotgun blast under the chin, therefore there should be no problem giving one to someone else. That is obviously ridiculous. But it does call up another question: What, exactly, is abuse, and how are the goings-on of a D/s relationship (something I have been very reluctant to call our relationship.) distinct from that? This is a serious question I have wrestled with often.
Part of this challenge, too, is that I tend to view myself as a male feminist, and my politics fall very closely to the lines you would expect from that description. I have read convincing arguments that all S&M relationships are born from an abusive attitude, or a desire to revisit one’s past abuse, or any number of wholly unacceptable root causes. I am deeply opposed to any sort of abusive relationship. This is heightened by the fact that both of us have abuse in our adult relationships in our past (indifferent abuse in mine, indifferent, physical, and sexual abuse in hers) that we don’t want to link our current relationship to, and we consciously avoid recreating. In fact, much of what we do now I would have viewed as abhorrent a year ago. So, what changed my mind?
The way that the S&M came into our lives was truly a slow evolution. It began with some playful spanks (which she had said she wanted) while she was on top. Then Mina began pushing for us to get a paddle, which we did when found one that said “SLUT,” which was a bit of inside joke for us. But then, we found she liked the paddle, and really liked how it felt, especially as the spankings became more fierce. Equally surprising to me was my response, that I found myself powerfully aroused by her reactions. Then, she fantasized about getting belted, over on her site. My reaction, when I read that, was that I never saw that happening. Of course, a week later, with some vodka assistance it did happened, and what followed was one of the hottest nights of sex ever. From there, the dam was broken.
But, as we continued to rush out to try new things, we also read other people’s experiences, and found ourselves appalled on occasion. There were clearly experience well outside what we would consider, for a host of reasons. For instance, every aspect of this experience was well outside our depth, and I was genuinely disturbed to have read about it. So clearly, there is a line…somewhere.
So, we return to the question - when does “great fun” cross into “abuse?” There are many factors to consider:
Consent
This is the number one difference. I have never once done anything to Mina that she was not a willing participant in. The use of a “safe word” is a common tool, in our case it is “green.” What happens is that if Mina ever says this word, everything stops. Not, “slows down,” or “backs off,” or “becomes gentle.” It stops, and there is no negotiation about it. For the record, this has yet to happen. Our play does not really delve into rape fantasy (which, for me, is a source of immense discomfort) so if she were to say “stop!” or “No!” or anything else that indicated displeasure, that would also do the job. The point of this is that she always has the ability to end whatever is happening. An abuser does not give his (or her) victim such a choice.
The significance of this cannot be overstated. The fantastic program Mythbusters was studying Chinese Water Torture, the idea that a slow drip of water on the forehead would drive one insane. When one of the hosts sat comfortably in his chair with water dripping on his head, not only was it not upsetting, but it was, in fact, rather soothing. However, when they strapped a cast member down and forced her to take the dripping, she was deeply disturbed and had to be freed in short order. (The psychologist they had brought in to consult took them to task for testing out torture and being shocked that it was so damaging.) The point is that choosing an experience fundamentally alters it. We see this every day when we happily do the chores to maintain our home that we used to groan when our parents MADE us do them.
Intent
Why do I beat Mina? My arousal does not come from the sting of my hands or the crack of the belt. It does, however, come from her groans, and her writhing from the experience. I don’t hurt her to satisfy an psychological impulse that wants to see another harmed, I belt her because she is aroused by it. If her response were any different, the pleasure in doing this would vanish for me. This line was blurred in the post that Buzz was commenting on, which sent both Mina and I into some deep introspection. For her parts, she was shocked and tremendously aroused to have such a visceral experience with an unfiltered part of my psyche. For my part, I was unsettled by what had happened, and not at all comfortable with it, even though I was never “out of control.” It was definitely a fringe experience.
But this sort of reflection also highlights a key difference between our relationship and an abusive relationship. I have no desire to destroy another person, especially not Mina. Of course, there is an obvious counter-argument: “Ike Turner was always sorry afterward.” And I can’t say that I disagree. The “Duck Test” applies here: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. If you fit the pattern of an abusive relationship, you are almost certainly in an abusive relationship. My inability to shake this line of reasoning is why the recent experience was so uncomfortable for me.
Safety
Every day (except Saturday) Mina and I work legitimate, professional jobs, and we are both very high-functioning, successful people. We both know that what happens in our bedroom can NEVER adversely impact this. Neither one of us can afford to mis work because of sex injuries, and neither one of us wants to be forced to find excuses for physical damage we sustained from each other. As an example, I might slap her, to create the tingling and burning sensation, but I would never punch her, a move that is really meant to do actual, physiological damage. Similarly, while a crop, which stings ferociously but almost never bruises, is wholly acceptable, a bat or a pipe would not be. I realize that these distinctions are easily lost on many people, though. A simpler view is this: what happens in bed, stays in bed.
Obviously, we do choose to write about what we do, and this blog has done a number of things to really enhance our relationship, by giving us a venue to voice our fantasies, and to communicate our problems. Mina and I are very close, and we always know what is going on with each other because we have this means to communicate. At the end of the day, this all exists because of the loving, functioning relationship we maintain. We have both acknowledged that it would be impossible for us to run to the extremes that we do without a deep trust in each other. What surprised us both is how the beatings have brought us so much closer, and how much these extreme activities has enhanced our relationship.
With this, I would like to address one more thing. Let me quote Buzz again:
I fail to see the pleasure here for anyone… you or him.
Honestly, I have no attraction to men. They are big, hairy creatures with rough faces. They tend to have leathery skin, and they invariably bring a cock to bed, which I have NO attraction to whatsoever. I cannot imagine why, on earth, a person would want to have sex with a man. But billions of people do. They’re called women. (excepting lesbians, including bi and gay men, yadda yadda yadda) My inability to see the pleasure in sleeping with a man does not, in any way, alter or de-legitimize their pleasure in the experience. In a similar way, Buzz’s inability to see the pleasure in it means nothing more than that the experience is not for him.
I wanted to respond to this, because the question of where the line is drawn is an important one, and one I have thought about. Even though the tone of the comment was flippant, it still brought up something important to think about. I don’t think that my answer is all-encompassing, and I am certainly willing to hear differing views. Mina and I agree that we should not delete comments for being negative. My view is, and will remain for the foreseeable future, is that I will only delete comments that are not about the post they are attached to (read: spam). I believe any idea worth holding should be able to withstand someone else thinking differently. This is a question that is very important to both of us as we continue on this journey, and we do take it very seriously.






I understand you more and more.
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It’s always great to hear we help someone understand where we are coming from.
xoxoxo mina
That is a fantastically written post. It explores so many issues that those just exploring the rougher side of sex and desire wrestle with. Thanks.
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He is a fantastic writer. Glad you got a lot out of it.
xoxoxo mina
That was brilliant! Well done!
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Yes, he is brilliant.
xoxoxox mina
i enjoyed this post. it cleared everything up for me. I am with kitty, i understand it more and more.
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Thank you very much. It is always nice knowing we have helped someone understand a little more.
xoxoxox mina
What two people consent to is not abuse…it’s when consent isn’t given that it becomes abuse.
Thanks to both of you for your enlightenment, to me.
Denise
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You are most welcome. Thank you for taking the time and reading.
xoxoxo mina
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Denise,
I think that is oversimplifying. Someone can choose to consent to unhealthy or unsafe behavior, and that won’t make it okay. I didn’t want to just leave it at that.
-A
Great post! *claps*
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On behalf of A, thank you.
xoxoxo mina
I agree with devil on this one.. I think this is an awesome post, and it addresses many questions people have in the D/S relationship.
Great!
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Thank you. We are very happy that this had helped answer a lot of questions.
xoxoxo mina
I already knew all the answers, but *standing ovation* all the same.
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*smile* thank you.
xoxoxox mina
This is a very thought-provoking post and one that hits home for me because I was involved in a D/s situation (I have posted a bit about it in the past). My situation was abusive - there was no love coming from the other woman toward me - I was just a thing to her. I think that when there is love there between the two people (like Mina and Amorphous), that will keeps things from turning to abuse.
Regarding the post on “toy’s” blog - it scares the shit out of me. Sometimes as a slave, once the person is in the situation, there are not many options for them. The slave has become totally reliant on her mistress (or master) and the slave just exists to serve the mistress. The only way out sometimes is to leave, but if one does not have the emotional and financial resources to leave, then they are stuck. The master or mistress also usually cuts the slave off from all friends and family. It leaves the slave with no one to turn to. That is abuse for sure.
Sorry that I am on a rant here, but I lived this for a short time last year and I can tell what abuse is. What Mina and Amorphous has is not abuse, in my opinion.
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Let me first address the issue of “Toy’s” post. Though I myself, would never want to be in the kind of relationship that she is in, I am not saying that it is wrong. To each their own. I am not here to judge and I am assuming that if she wanted to get out, she would. her blog gives readers the impression that she enjoys being her Master’s OBJECT. And if that makes her happy, then who am I to say other wise? Amorphous and I are merely stating that we would not enjoy that kind of D/s relationship.
And thank you Sage for your input. It is always good to hear from others who are/have been in similar situations. And it is even better when we help someone understand where we are coming from.
xoxoxox mina
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I think the severity of my reaction to Toy’s post has stuck with me for a long time. I was genuinely repulsed by it, and was really struck (okay, horrified) by how demented her treatment was. I don’t think that what happened was by any means criminal, but I did, inherently, feel it was amoral (and possible immoral). At the same time, there is a lot of things that go on between myself and Mina that travel down the same road, so I have to ask myself, what makes what *I* do okay, if I have decided that what they do is not? After all, I don’t think anyone wants to be a Law and Order:SVU episode.
-A
Situation like this happens in every BDSM relationship, at least, I think…
We had something similar happening many years ago, in the beginning of our exploration… He came to my place with a huge leather strap… and when I saw it, I asked Him if he wanted to really hurt me… to what he answered, No… for sure…
But, in the middle of the scene, he got very intense… and so the strap… on my breasts… It was more than painful… and I reacted in a very defensive way… That wasn’t what we had plan to do… and OMG! He cried so much after fact… We discussed this event for quite long before starting back on the BDSM… and it didn’t happen still… I know it was one of those tuning opportunity for us… and something that helped us to know what we really wanted to do and how far each of us was ready to go…
Yes… negative comments are also usefull… they give the point of view of people from the outside… and it is ok to keep them and to answer them as nicely as you did.
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Thank you so much for this insightful comment. It is good to hear that every D/s relationship goes thru this.
xoxoxo mina
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I’m sure intent plays a big part in the defining of your sexual relationship. Mina satisfies her desire to be a human sex toy (and we all like that) and Amorphous satisfies his desire for control (which gives us all a little fantasy of our own too). Yes I’m exercising my psychology gene.
I’m having a hard time explaining my thoughts on this but I think what I’m trying to put down here is that the issue isn’t really the motivation behind Amor beating Mina, the guy would punch a nail through his dick if she asked him to, but rather, why Mina feels the need to be beaten. Amorphous, he’s easy. Psychologically abused in a past relationship (been there with ya buddy, we can share the t-shirt and swap war stories sometime) you come out of it wanting control. You don’t want to feel like the blob of spit she made you think you were. But the beatings don’t stem from what Amorphous wants to do to Mina, its what Mina wants done to her, and if that allows Amorphous his sense of control, there it is.
But Mina, I can see she had a bad past but what would make her feel so much like garbage that she could derive not all, but her highest pleasure, from being beaten ? Why is it that she gets such a release from being treated like this ? In a nutshell, why doesn’t she love herself ? What great abomination does she feel she’s done that she feels she deserves this ?
I guess more importantly, who gives a fuck what I say ? I’ve only got half a shrink degree and that wasn’t with any emphasis on Abnormal Psych. What’s important is that the two are comfortable with what they are doing. If they want to delve into the subliminal part of it at a later date, zey can hire ze doktor, no ? Though I would wonder what just happened too so you can keep it from happening again. If there’s a question in your mind about it brother, then it probably wasn’t a good thing
Thus endeth the rant.
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Kevin,
There’s a lot in here, and I don’t know that I can respond to it all. What interests me is that your question: “why doesn’t she love herself?” I don’t know that I agree that this is a valid question. I think you’re assuming a lot here, and I feel the need to point out some issues with selective sampling. Everything that appears on this site does so at our decision. While we never embellish the truth or describe anything that didn’t happen (unless it is labeled a fantasy), we don’t tell the whole truth either. There are things that are just for us.
Having said that, I want to say that a lot of this comment rang really false to me. While I think that the conclusions you have reached are completely reasonable, based on the information available, I don’t think that they fit the whole story. Of course, you can’t really know the whole story, but, let me try to add a few things to your understanding.
“You come out of it wanting control.” -referring to me. This is actually untrue. I came out really wanting someone I didn’t need to control, like my ex-. I wanted someone who could really please me on her own.
“what would make her feel so much like garbage that she could derive not all, but her highest pleasure, from being beaten?” -I don’t think Mina has ever felt like garbage, and, more importantly, I can say very clearly that this is not how she derives her highest pleasure. (That is from being on top.) I will let her comment on what works for her, but I can say that this statement is not true. Now, that is not, of course, the answer to everything, but I think it would be worthwhile to try to get to the bottom of all this, to understand it better, so your comments are absolutely appreciated, and we always enjoy the thought you put into what you say.
-A
Damn that comment went on long. Y’all can delete it if you want. I was just thinking out loud….er…..on the keyboard….or something.
Wow.. what a thought provoking and provocative thinking post. I have often wondered when D/s crosses the line. I too read marriedmansfucktoy and could not bear to look at the pictures of her being black and blue… I cringed wondering if I could allow a Dom to do this to me. Being submissive I do want to be controlled and I like spankings.. I think there is a HUGE difference between M/s and D/s . Toy is in a M/s relationship. she has no rights..depending on the contract between her and her M.
In D/s the sub always has a bit more control and can stop play with a safe word should it become too intense.
I just don’t know… I guess I will have to think more on the subject.
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I think there is a lot to think about. I think M/s, even if it is agreed to, is really hard to defend. I think having that kind of power over someone is inherently corrupting. In a lot of ways, slavery has has been shown to be unconscionable, and I don’t think it’s just because “most people can’t handle it.” Which, of course, calls into question, “What separates D/s?” What makes us special? I’m not sure I know, although there needs to be SOMETHING. I just don’t think it will be a nice bright line.
-A
A
I’m not sure I meant it was ok, I think I was trying to define what is abuse and what is not.
I was in an abusive relationship for many years, but because of my submissive nature I didn’t realise it, I thought it was normal.
Attending a course on Domestic Violence made me realise what ‘our relationship’ was.
Reading your blog, and the comments made has helped me realise qutie a lot about myself and others.
Again, thank you
Denise
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Denise,
Absolutely, and I hope that you continue to feel that you have a greater understanding of what the dynamics of these sorts of things are. I don’t claim to totally understand it by myself, but you get there by talking about it.
-A
Your blog was mailed for my attention by my partner and as we are raising our relationship a little over the norm expected when we were a lot younger, it seemed appropriate to read as much as possible, (as we have been), to fuel our discussions.
Thank you for clarifying some of my/our thoughts. And thank you both for being so candid.
It’s not surprising that you have so many comments, that was very good, you have another expectant reader.
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Joe,
Thanks for the kind words. As you find that you and your partner are escalating, I do have some advice: take it slow. Introduce one new thing at a time.m I’m not saying it all has to be planned in advance, but if the spur of the moment leads to some new ground being broken, it may not be the best time to rush WAY ahead and start trying everything. If things do go pear-shaped, it can potentially be very difficult to suss out which things are good and which are not.
I didn’t comment higher up to raveninnyc, because he is a good friend, and we talk a lot, but he also had some very good insight in another venue: Don’t fetishize it. You will never find either Mina or myself at a bondage-and-leather convention, dressed out in a bunch of studded leather, or operating a dungeon. My favorite analogy (being a foodie) is that D/s is a spice, not an entree.
Best of luck,
-A
Thanks A. … i can’t see us ever going public either … like you said … ‘What goes on in the bedroom stays there’ (0r similar words.)
We’ll Suck-it-and-see.
Really good post.
I have been more and more running into things to do with bdsm and D/s relationships in my life. Friends who are into it to a greater or lesser degree, that sort of thing. I’m a pretty alpha female, and enjoy having an alpha male to go along with it, also, I don’t find pain pleasurable in any way, so the D/s and M/s relationships I find pretty confusing and I had some concerns about trying to distinguish between these relationships and abusive ones.
So I’ve been reading and learning and reading some more… Started on Puppy Tales and found my way to different blogs from there. It’s still not something that holds attraction for me, but I think I’m starting to get it, at least enough to tell generally between D/s and abuse. Your post was great for outlining some things that I had been thinking but weren’t fully formed yet. Well done. (Sidenote: the figging link totally squicked me out though).
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Well, I would be the last to tell people who aren’t interested not to try it. If you’ve done your best to understand it, and it doesn’t appeal to you, you might just not be in to it. It’s hardly a fault. Kinks simply are, and there is no reason to think that your lack of interest represents any kind of failing on your part. I take pains to say this because a lot of these conversation can come off differently to people who aren’t in to this sort of thing.
That said, I do appreciate that you have done what you can to understand it, with so open a mind as you have obviously brought to it. Best of luck as you guys explore your interests together.
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